Healthcare with an occupy tie in

[i bleed green]

I am well aware of the general opinion towards Micheal Moore on this forum, but put that aside for a minute and actually pay attention to the message.

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My point with this one is not the wait time part of it, because obviously it's not always that fast. Skip ahead to the part about the deductibles and choosing where to go for care.


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you work your whole fucking life and something unavoidable happens like with the guy at the end of the clip, and you want to let the guy just die because he doesn't have $44 grand saved up? What the fuck is wrong with you? (Obviously not aimed at anyone specifically, just the general attitude towards the situation)

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[michaelangelo]

Economies of scale make any socialized medicine approach non-workable here in the United States. The two largest entitlement programs (Social Security and Medicare) are teetering on the edge of insolvency and WILL crash and burn in the next 20 years when the baby-boom generation fully enters both programs. Where is the money going to come from to fund such a system? In Canada my tax burden would approach 45-50% depending on which province I live in. Sorry, but I'm not about to take a 10% hit to pay for someone else's insurance. That doesn't even begin to deal with how much is going to be necessary to try and salvage Medicare and Social Security. You might be ok with a nominal tax rate of 60-70% but I'm not.

Also...if your 34 million Canadians face 12-18 month waits for services...how do you think that'll translate to 315 million people?

You'll die in line.

in Alberta, I pay 32% taxes, the highest tax bracket in Alberta is 39%. My father in law was diagnosed with lymphoma (a type of cancer) and started treatment almost immediately (since it was critical to start right away). Our provincial governemnt went through many cutbacks over the past few years in health care and education, but they are now trying to 'right the ship.' I don't use the health care system that much, but i am glad i don't have to worry about medical bills that could potentially bankrupt me if something were to happen to me. that's just my .02, our system obviously is not perfect, and it's been pretty bad, but it's getting better.

[i bleed green]

Economies of scale make any socialized medicine approach non-workable here in the United States. The two largest entitlement programs (Social Security and Medicare) are teetering on the edge of insolvency and WILL crash and burn in the next 20 years when the baby-boom generation fully enters both programs. Where is the money going to come from to fund such a system? In Canada my tax burden would approach 45-50% depending on which province I live in. Sorry, but I'm not about to take a 10% hit to pay for someone else's insurance. That doesn't even begin to deal with how much is going to be necessary to try and salvage Medicare and Social Security. You might be ok with a nominal tax rate of 60-70% but I'm not.

Also...if your 34 million Canadians face 12-18 month waits for services...how do you think that'll translate to 315 million people?

You'll die in line.

Obviously with a bigger population there would be more money for health care, and more beds and doctors etc. so its all proportional. You still have 315 million people now, and the hospitals and equipment for a population that size. The only difference is how it is getting paid for.

My rants aside, everyone is making some great points, and I am enjoying reading everyone's point of view.

[Brampton]

Economies of scale make any socialized medicine approach non-workable here in the United States. The two largest entitlement programs (Social Security and Medicare) are teetering on the edge of insolvency and WILL crash and burn in the next 20 years when the baby-boom generation fully enters both programs. Where is the money going to come from to fund such a system? In Canada my tax burden would approach 45-50% depending on which province I live in. Sorry, but I'm not about to take a 10% hit to pay for someone else's insurance. That doesn't even begin to deal with how much is going to be necessary to try and salvage Medicare and Social Security. You might be ok with a nominal tax rate of 60-70% but I'm not.

Also...if your 34 million Canadians face 12-18 month waits for services...how do you think that'll translate to 315 million people?

You'll die in line.

my father had a heart attack a few years back, his wait time was a little longer than it might have been in the US, he's still here today.

My mom survived stage 5 breast cancer, and her treatments took a little longer to complete than they may have in the US, she's still here today.

you know whats funny, their treatments were covered, just like the people they experienced these events also experienced. Everybody's treatments were covered, my parents have extra health coverage courtesy of my fathers pension plan. most of the people that go through the same things as my parents aren't covered, except for our public health care.

what would happen in the US? would they have been left to die?

If so, ask me again......where would I rather live? In a country where I get to keep all my money and "f" everyone else, but my parents are long dead? Or in a country that we give a little more, for ourselves and our neighbors and I still get to enjoy my parents company

And I believe that the amount of money that goes towards public health is relative to the amount of people who live there. Yes Canada has around 30 million people and the US has about 300 million. But if people are paying their taxes, and the money is spent a little better, wouldn't the financial resources be there for people?

[Brampton]

Canada representing :high5:

[i bleed green]

Canada representing :high5:

:high5: :high5:
Thanks for the help lol.

[i bleed green]

You might be ok with a nominal tax rate of 60-70% but I'm not.

I'm curious where you got that number from.

[Hondo]

First of all....nobody gets "left to die". Everyone gets treated regardless of if they can pay or not. Those that can't pay already have their health care costs passed through to everyone else.

Obviously with a bigger population there would be more money for health care, and more beds and doctors etc. so its all proportional.

Actually, it's not at all. There is already a huge issue with lack of doctors and medical professionals. Thank the lawyers and the government for that one. Even if you fixed the issue tomorrow you're 20 years minimum from making headway against it.

Read this:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/09_52/b4161098202420.htm">http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/co ... 202420.htm</a><!-- m -->

[Pete Nice]

A few points:

1. I will get the negative out of the way first. Yes, what was said in those videos was ideal, but Michael Moore is a spinster, his job is to find the people, no matter how few, with the ideal scenario. I think free healthcare is GREAT and we should all have it, but the current Obamacare does not do that, not even close. I have said for years that I am all for Universal Healthcare, but ONLY if done right and beneficial to EVERYONE. Universal healthcare is awesome if it is across the board and everything is covered, as these videos say. Not this half assed shit Obama has out there. I should not have to pay the same, sorry more, for my healthcare AND pay for someone else's health care on top of that.

2. One of the videos mentions that all the doctors in, I think England, are doctors, or health care professionals, b/c they care and want to help. I call absolute bullshit on that one. In any country, doctors are doctors to make money, at least 95% of them are. Some countries that amount of money is less, but it is still always more than the norm of that society. Well more. I dated a Russian chick once, well more than once, but I am talking about one Russian chick in particular (not my wife) and both her parents were doctors. They both had been doctors for around 20 years. They made around $75k US each per year. Not really what you would expect for a doctor with 20 years experience right? But they have universal health care in Russia, so the state pays them. But they are still well paid in comparison to the rest of society in Russia, where the median salary is probably around $20k US per person. They also are very well respected in society and get other perks for their services. In America, good fucking luck getting a doctor to work for that amount all his life b/c the govt is paying him. The cost of healthcare is the problem in the US, it is way overpriced b/c of supply and demand. Healthcare providers bill the fuck out of insurance companies b/c they know they will pay, then our rates go up like 30% a year or some crazy shit. I personally would like the government to flat out cap profit on medical treatment, but those are the lobbyists that are paying to get these politicians elected, so it will never happen.

3. Those waiting times are obviously grossly understated in that video. I am sure Moore went into some small white middle upper class town with a good work ethic for that video. You wait longer than that in a US ER. I bet if you went into most Canadian hospital ER's and made that same video, without editing it out, you would get a ton of "I have been here 4 fucking hours b/c all the hypo's with their colds are clogging shit up". Fuck I have heard that on this board. But, as Brampton stated, I would rather wait a little longer to get the treatment than to pay $44k to get treatment that should be free. The problem with Obamacare, is that right now I would have to pay that $44k, hard working, educated, combat veteran, tax paying, middle class me, would have to pay that $44k. But an uneducated or undereducated, unemployed or underemployed, possibly alcohol or drug addicted poor person who's life is riddled with extremely poor decisions and doesn't pay taxes, gets it for free. How the fuck is that fair? I couldn't afford a $4400 treatment right now, let alone a $44k one. Shit $440 sets me back a month right now.

There is too much greed in America, not by everyone, just by those that make all the decisions. And there is no politician that will ever have the balls to do anything about it under the current system. This Obamacare is a joke, it actually COSTS me more money.

Sorry for my :rant: I do want healthcare, I just don't want to be the one getting fucked over while the dregs of society are taken care of.

[i bleed green]

First of all....nobody gets "left to die". Everyone gets treated regardless of if they can pay or not. Those that can't pay already have their health care costs passed through to everyone else.

Obviously with a bigger population there would be more money for health care, and more beds and doctors etc. so its all proportional.

Actually, it's not at all. There is already a huge issue with lack of doctors and medical professionals. Thank the lawyers and the government for that one. Even if you fixed the issue tomorrow you're 20 years minimum from making headway against it.

Read this:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/09_52/b4161098202420.htm">http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/co ... 202420.htm</a><!-- m -->

A shortage of health care professionals is also part of the problem up here. Can't see it getting any better either.

[i bleed green]

A few points:

1. the current Obamacare does not do that, not even close.


The for profit aspect is still there, which IMO is a large part of the problem. That is why I'm so strongly in favour of government health care, because the focus is more on the health care and not on $$$

2. I personally would like the government to flat out cap profit on medical treatment, but those are the lobbyists that are paying to get these politicians elected, so it will never happen.

I've heard doctors up here do have a cap on the limit they can make, but I can't say for sure. Definitely a good idea

3. Those waiting times are obviously grossly understated in that video. I bet if you went into most Canadian hospital ER's and made that same video, without editing it out, you would get a ton of "I have been here 4 fucking hours b/c all the hypo's with their colds are clogging shit up".

Yeah, I know. That's why I specifically stated that my reason for posting that one was to illustrate how we don't have deductables, can choose our own doctors, and don't have to get approved for most procedures. You hit the nail on the head with your comment about people going to the ER for a fucking nose bleed, and draining resources. Sort of similar thing: I was at a friend's place one time and her fucking daughter (20 y.o.) calls 911 because she had heard there were tornado warnings earlier. People are stupid.

[Brampton]

A few points:

1. the current Obamacare does not do that, not even close.


The for profit aspect is still there, which IMO is a large part of the problem. That is why I'm so strongly in favour of government health care, because the focus is more on the health care and not on $$$

2. I personally would like the government to flat out cap profit on medical treatment, but those are the lobbyists that are paying to get these politicians elected, so it will never happen.

I've heard doctors up here do have a cap on the limit they can make, but I can't say for sure. Definitely a good idea

3. Those waiting times are obviously grossly understated in that video. I bet if you went into most Canadian hospital ER's and made that same video, without editing it out, you would get a ton of "I have been here 4 fucking hours b/c all the hypo's with their colds are clogging shit up".

Yeah, I know. That's why I specifically stated that my reason for posting that one was to illustrate how we don't have deductables, can choose our own doctors, and don't have to get approved for most procedures. You hit the nail on the head with your comment about people going to the ER for a fucking nose bleed, and draining resources. Sort of similar thing: I was at a friend's place one time and her fucking daughter (20 y.o.) calls 911 because she had heard there were tornado warnings earlier. People are stupid.

Point 2, I believe there is a cap per patient for our doctors. They can still make a ton of money, but they can only make so much per patient. So there is no bonus or kickback for unneccessary treatments or prescriptions

Point 3. ER wait times are horrible "in some places". part of the problem is that there are less and less family doctors, so people take up those seats at the ER when their kids have the sniffles. Plus where I'm from there is a huge amount of Immigrants who don't understand the ER isn't for coughs and colds.

[Donginator]

A few points:


2. One of the videos mentions that all the doctors in, I think England, are doctors, or health care professionals, b/c they care and want to help. I call absolute bullshit on that one. In any country, doctors are doctors to make money, at least 95% of them are. Some countries that amount of money is less, but it is still always more than the norm of that society. Well more. I dated a Russian chick once, well more than once, but I am talking about one Russian chick in particular (not my wife) and both her parents were doctors. They both had been doctors for around 20 years. They made around $75k US each per year. Not really what you would expect for a doctor with 20 years experience right? But they have universal health care in Russia, so the state pays them. But they are still well paid in comparison to the rest of society in Russia, where the median salary is probably around $20k US per person. They also are very well respected in society and get other perks for their services. In America, good fucking luck getting a doctor to work for that amount all his life b/c the govt is paying him. The cost of healthcare is the problem in the US, it is way overpriced b/c of supply and demand. Healthcare providers bill the fuck out of insurance companies b/c they know they will pay, then our rates go up like 30% a year or some crazy shit. I personally would like the government to flat out cap profit on medical treatment, but those are the lobbyists that are paying to get these politicians elected, so it will never happen.

There is too much greed in America, not by everyone, just by those that make all the decisions. And there is no politician that will ever have the balls to do anything about it under the current system. This Obamacare is a joke, it actually COSTS me more money.

For these points :high5:

went to see my doctor because of weird chest pains (pulled muscle) I had for over 3 weeks, did a EKG to be safe. Even though I pay $110 a paycheck for my coverage I still have to pay for my EKG. I know this is a little example there needs to be a change in our healthcare, what they charge, what coverage you actually get even though you pay for it already

[Hondo]

went to see my doctor because of weird chest pains (pulled muscle) I had for over 3 weeks, did a EKG to be safe. Even though I pay $110 a paycheck for my coverage I still have to pay for my EKG. I know this is a little example there needs to be a change in our healthcare, what they charge, what coverage you actually get even though you pay for it already

No, they did an EKG so THEY could be safe. I'd bet anything the doctor knew damn well after he examined you it was a pulled muscle but the fear of litigation in the unlikely event they missed something required the EKG as well. This is a prime example of the unnecessary kind of testing that goes on...thanks to lawyers :flame:

[Beckster]

A few points:
Healthcare providers bill the fuck out of insurance companies b/c they know they will pay, then our rates go up like 30% a year or some crazy shit

QTF

As for Mike Moore. Of course, he swings things to fit his message, but when he made his very first documentary, Roger & Me , it wasn't really far off track. In fact, I knew people in worse situations and I have driven through the worst areas of Saginaw and Flint and they are devastating. Big houses turned into ghetto apartments and just complete trash.